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Women and Men and Writing (oh my!)

  • May. 9th, 2009 at 6:56 PM
art of writing
I've been thinking about this (incredibly far-reaching) topic for a while, trying to get my thoughts in some semblance of order, but it's been pretty impossible. So I'm embracing the chaos and just free writing this beastie. I'll be interested to see how it turns out! :)


First question: Is there a distinct style difference between women writers and men writers?

I think this is an impossible question to conclusively answer. For one there are so many styles of writing, period. Would we compare poets to journalists? Pulp fiction to experimental literature? Playwrights to novelists? Who would do the judging and could we count on them to not recognize the author when we set Austin and Twain in front of them? (I'd only trust a blind test. Too many agendas to spoil the pot otherwise, is my thinking.) And could we trust the opinion of judges who didn't recognize the grand masters of the literary canon? It seems a rather Herculean task, and most likely a Sisyphean one in the end. (I ♥ Ancient Greek references!)

Therefore, I conclude it comes down to the easily influenced, differing drastically from person to person, gut call. Which means I can only say that for myself, no there's not really a style difference. No such thing as all women writers being more sensitive and inclusive, or all men writers being more intellectual and gutsy. (Why, yes I did go for stereotypical examples of perceived gender differences. It's my ham-handed attempt to illustrate the slippery slope I fear in this sort of judging. *g*) Instead I think there are over-all styles of writing (character driven vs. plot driven, for example) and that style will dictate how any writer writes, no matter their gender.


Leading into the second question: Are there types or styles of writing that one gender handles better than another?

I think finding an answer to this question is slightly more possible than the first. Pick a style, pick a type, and see who writes it well. Are there only men? Only women? Then the answer is yes. But, going off the top of my head, I can't think of a single style that boasts brilliant men writers only or brilliant women writers only.

Spotlight on the elephant in the room, please! Gender inequality exists, it existed even more in the past, and it really existed in the long, long ago. So while there are both men and women writing, and writing well, in all sorts of styles there is generally more men to pull out as examples, especially as we travel back in time. But that doesn't show women didn't have the ability, it simply shows they didn't have the means. (This is where I highly recommend Virginia Woolf's "A Room of One's Own" in general and her riff on Shakespeare's sister (about 1/3 of the way down the screen) in particular.)

End universally already understood (I'd hope!) but still necessary to point out, digression. Yes, there will probably be higher numbers of men to choose from when seeking out brilliant writers of various styles and types. However, taking into account the, at times drastically, tilted playing field I think the answer is still, no. There are no "strictly male" or "strictly female" types or styles of writing.


This does beg a third question though: Are there styles of writing that attract one gender over another?

Yes. Easy proof? Romance novels. Also, comic books. But I think that sort of segregating has much more to do with interests rather than ability. For whatever reason (I lean pretty heavily towards the dictates and constraints of society) more women are interested in romance novels than men, and more men are interested in comic books than women. (Those two examples are not evenly split, of course. Very few men would say they enjoy reading romance novels, compared to the amount of women who enjoy, and feel free to say they enjoy, reading comic books. Which is fascinating to me.)

I will say, I feel like that sort of segregation not all that good a thing. Especially where the lines are pretty heavily drawn. I have this gut feeling that writing specifically for one gender would necessarily lessen the work. I feel like it'd be too easy for a sort of atrophy to set in, especially if the writer is writing for their own gender. Though, maybe that would only happen if the writer thought too heavily about their audience?

And that's enough for now. Crap conclusion, I know. But I'm not sure I've really reached a conclusion. Let the thinking continue! :D

Comments

( 10 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]xparrot wrote:
May. 10th, 2009 07:59 am (UTC)
Hmmm...this is a question I've asked myself a lot. Especially because broadly, I do see definite preferences in what women and men like to read and write, and what they get out of fiction in general...not just creators; the differences between fangirls and fanboys intrigue me.

I think it's a mistake to say these preferences are "strictly" one gender or the other; people are individuals, whatever their sex, and there's always going to be some people who break the mold. But on average it seems that women are more character-focused, men more plot-focused. Female writers are more likely to explore what a character is feeling, male writers more likely to look at what a character is doing...though obviously there's a lot of overlap there!

--Also, when it comes to gender inequality in writing, I do have to point out that what is sometimes considered the first novel was penned by a woman (Lady Murasaki's The Tale of Genji - which really is romantic/soap-operatic thinly veiled RPF, proving that fangirls really haven't changed that much in a thousand years XP)
[info]horridporrid wrote:
May. 10th, 2009 06:26 pm (UTC)
I agree that preferences certainly exist, but I have this suspicion that they can change depending on what society thinks about gender at the time. I mean, look at the Romantic period, when it was cool for men to go into raptures about nature and to feel things ever so deeply, and then write heartfelt poems telling us all about it. Which makes me leery of saying the preferences are strictly gender based. Society plays its part.

I think it's a mistake to say these preferences are "strictly" one gender or the other; people are individuals, whatever their sex, and there's always going to be some people who break the mold.

Yes, exactly. I do agree that it's possible (and correct, even!) to point out trends and such. And frankly, as long as it's understood that we're talking in generalities only, I think preferences aren't necessarily a bad thing. But it's important to not pigeon-hole too strictly. The cage you're building could be your own! :D

Also, when it comes to gender inequality in writing, I do have to point out that what is sometimes considered the first novel was penned by a woman (Lady Murasaki's The Tale of Genji...

Yes! And it's a perfect response to the "women can't" argument. Obviously Lady Murasaki had the means and so she did. And did with such a strong effect that her work shaped a civilizations' definition of itself.
[info]villainny wrote:
May. 10th, 2009 08:07 am (UTC)
It's definitely intriguing, but would be difficult to investigate with any degree of objectivity because it's so heavily weighted towards value judgements, I suppose?

I wanted to write a dissertation on this sort of thing but in terms of the language that men and women use, so less based on style and more on precisely what it is that is said. I was thinking specifically of the language used in sex scenes, because I'm a slasher since 13 and helpless against it, (>:D) and what the language says about the various power dynamics and suchlike.

I do wish I weren't such a rubbish student. XD
[info]horridporrid wrote:
May. 10th, 2009 06:37 pm (UTC)
Hah! Personally I think it's not that you're a bad student and more that it's an overwhelming topic! Because you'll have a style that demands a certain way of using words, and of course everyone writing in that style will use their words in that way. And if you have someone who's done quite well in that style they'll probably have a lot of imitators.

Narrowing it down to just sex scenes would help of course, but still... that's a lot to go through! Because I'd imagine a sex scene in a romance novel would read very differently from a sex scene in a political thriller. And then you'd get overlap and those pesky exceptions to the rule and... like I said, overwhelming! :D
[info]ellecain wrote:
May. 10th, 2009 10:17 am (UTC)
There are no "strictly male" or "strictly female" types or styles of writing.

I totally agree but I think there's a large number of people who don't see it that way, who buy into this assumption. Nicholas Sparks has made an enormous amount of money by writing romance novels and yet people will insist that romance is a female genre.

And I think this influences the answer to your third question. If you assume that some types or genres of writing are inherently gendered, then you will automatically hesitate to pick up that which is "not for me". I think one leads to the other - if someone doesn't think of certain types of writing as gendered he/she would be more inclined to pick up different genres, no? All IMO of course, I could be wrong!
[info]horridporrid wrote:
May. 10th, 2009 06:58 pm (UTC)
If you assume that some types or genres of writing are inherently gendered, then you will automatically hesitate to pick up that which is "not for me".

I agree it becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. This may be one of the reasons there's such a love/hate thing with writers and genres. I've read about some authors who cringe at getting "pigeon holed" into a specific genre, and others who fully embrace it. On the one hand, having a book classified as "romance" lines it up for a specific and vast audience. But on the other hand, it shuts it out of another vast audience.

And then to add a gender-bias to it... I don't know, I think it can be a good thing to have a bookish equivalent to a "girls night out", but I also feel like too much segregation is a bad thing. Probably because it can lead to stereotyping? Or maybe create false limitations? ("Boys can't write romance." "Girls can't write action.")
[info]ms_arithmancer wrote:
May. 10th, 2009 02:51 pm (UTC)
I think this discussion is doomed to get nowhere. (Though it can still be fun!) It is like most such discussion in my opinion, not susceptible to a clear, clear, definitive answer. I find it akin to the discussion of whether there are careers/ professions men are better suited for then women. Statistically speaking, for example, men as a group outperform women as a group on tests of mathematical and visual/spatial ability. (And while gender bias, etc. etc. may exist in testing instruments, I am skeptical that this fully explains this particular difference.) So perhaps engineering, computers, physical sciences, etc. are an area "men are better at".

But then we get to particulars. You may well know a guy considerably more gifted in math than I. But, speaking again as a statistician... it is not likely. (Also not relevant on a practical level, there are enough jobs out there for people with my particular skill that it is entirely appropriate for me to work in such an area).

In other words, I do believe there are sex-based differences in our species in many, many areas - but the variation between individuals, even individuals of the same sex in those same areas, is considerably greater.
[info]horridporrid wrote:
May. 10th, 2009 07:09 pm (UTC)
I think this discussion is doomed to get nowhere. (Though it can still be fun!)

Hah! My favorite kind of discussion! (Also, probably a reason it's been chasing 'round and 'round my head for so long. *g*)

In other words, I do believe there are sex-based differences in our species in many, many areas - but the variation between individuals, even individuals of the same sex in those same areas, is considerably greater.

I think that's the best conclusion we can reach, frankly. I mean, it's logical that there are some sort of sex based differences, but what exactly? I think it's a situation where we're too close to the data to analyze it correctly. Going with the math thing: even if the test was guaranteed to not be gender biased, I'd worry that society's influences on children going into the test would skew the outcome.

So, since we can't come to a definitive conclusion, best to work from the starting premise that everyone potentially has the ability and then take it on an individual level.
[info]tipper_green wrote:
May. 11th, 2009 07:14 pm (UTC)
The problem with this sort of discussion is that you can really only answer with personal feelings, rather than any sort of empirical data, because the empirical data is so heavily biased. By that I mean, that there's a reason female sci-fi authors often hide behind a pseudonym or a single initial, and why you rarely see a male name on a romance novel -- because publishers don't think they will sell as well. So, success in certain genres is pre-determined by the marketers, publishers and producers long before the novel hits the stands, much in the same way TV content is assumed to hit a certain market, or movies. The moneymakers long ago decided that certain genres sell to certain genders, and the other gender is dismissed. This means, while it would be great to point to statistical or historical evidence to demonstrate an answer to this question, it's not going to be reliable. Not until that changes. (Do I think it's changing? Nope. Men still think they're the only ones who like sci-fi. Check out this latest headline on Entertainment Weekly's website about Star Trek's great opening weekend gross: " Star Trek's solid-A grade shows that word of mouth could be strong enough to bring in fans outside of the franchise's usual demographic (i.e., people who weren't alive in the 1980s...and women) as the weeks go on." I love the "and women." I went with six other girls to see it, and not one guy. There were tons of women in the audience—I'd even say it was about 50/50. Why is this not translating to the men in charge? Or writing newstories like this one?)

Anyway, all the above is really intended to say is that, you can't rely on anything "factual" to demonstrate that women write differently than men, or are attracted to one genre over another, or write better in another genre or another, because we don't have any un-adulterated evidence to give us an answer.

So, you can only go with personal feelings. And…because I do love these sort of discussions, here's mine. To me, there is no difference in the way men and women write. I think individuals write differently from other individuals, but gender is just a contributing factor in that, not the only factor. We all write from the perspective of our individual biases, and while women often come from a different set of experiences than a man in the same situation, they don't stylistically write any differently.

Rather, I would say that I write very differently from, say, my best friend NotTasha. Her style screams at me every time I read something of hers, and it's not my style (which is darker, wordier, more action-based and less witty). that's simply because she has a different background and sense of humor from me. And we're the same gender. I don't think it would be different if she were male--it would be different simply because she's a different person than I am.

The other two questions suffer from a similar lack of reliable empirical evidence, and historically forced gender bias. Look at the first few decades of the published novel. The first and, easily, one of the greatest science fiction novels ever written, was Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. And yet, women are supposedly not the ones who write or enjoy sci-fi. Did she write differently from male writers? Could you tell it was written by a woman? No, to both. Same question, modern day: SGA fanfiction is written almost exclusively by women, working in a science-fiction medium, so we assume only women are writing. But they're not. And when a man writes a fanfiction, can you tell? No.

I think the gender bias is something we're taught to believe, not something necessarily inherent. My father adored sci-fi, so there were tons of novels scattered around the house. I picked one up when I was a kid, because I wanted to be like dad, and I loved it, just like I loved watching Doctor Who with him after dinner on PBS. If he hadn't liked sci-fi, and there were no novels in the house or Doctor Who to watch with him after dinner, would I be watching and reading and writing sci-fi now? Probably not. But I did, so I do, and it had nothing to do with my gender.

So, there you go. Thank you for letting me play in your sandbox!
[info]horridporrid wrote:
May. 12th, 2009 12:27 am (UTC)
The problem with this sort of discussion is that you can really only answer with personal feelings, rather than any sort of empirical data, because the empirical data is so heavily biased.

Very much like literature, really! :D What, exactly, does one point to to say, yes this book or poem belongs in our beloved canon, but these over here do not. So much comes down to a gut call.

Though... I think there are roughly outlined rules of thumb, a certain sense of flow and character and plot and such. But for every "rule" there's an example that breaks it. (It's kind of awesome to my mind, but also a bit mad-making.)

However, I think if there's a positive example, even if it's only a small amount, then the negative side is proved untrue. Can women write sci-fi? Of course they can; there are too many examples of good writers (popular and critically proclaimed to be so) to support the idea that they can't. Can men write romance? Of course they can, again because they've done it. And in both cases, in large enough numbers that I think it's impossible to put down to "exceptions that prove the rule".

The first and, easily, one of the greatest science fiction novels ever written, was Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.

Yes! And her husband is one of the greater romantic poets out there. I love that this is true. :D

Skipping back a bit, I think you hit the nail on it here:
...there's a reason female sci-fi authors often hide behind a pseudonym or a single initial, and why you rarely see a male name on a romance novel -- because publishers don't think they will sell as well.
[...]
The moneymakers long ago decided that certain genres sell to certain genders, and the other gender is dismissed.


I think the biggest issue is a preconception (and I think a rather narrow-minded one) regarding the intended audience. I did a bit of quick internet research to make sure I wasn't crazy and there were guys writing in the "romance" genre. There are, and they all write under very female pen names.

(A tiny aside: The bizarre thing to me is I consider Sydney Sheldon and Ken Follett and Wilbur Smith and so many other male writers as writing "romance", but they don't get put under that genre. It's weird, and I think it shows how wobbly a line the genre markers can be.

Huh. You know, those are the guys that I feel "introduced" me to romance, and Madeline L'Engle was my introduction to science fiction. There's a lesson in that. *g*)

Anyway, I think the idea that you're writing for an audience of a specific gender can screw things up. I think the best work is done by an author either writing for as broad an audience as possible, or writing strictly for themselves. (I'm not very clear as to why I think that, but that's my instinct on this.)

And yeah, the moneymakers are just plain odd to me. Why wouldn't you want more butts in the seats? And yes, why can't they see (I mean, it's so, so obvious, all you have to do is look) that women are big fans of sci-fi too?

Thank you for letting me play in your sandbox!

Thanks for playing! :D (And inspiring my icon choice. *g*)
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